Welcome back to KK&F, where we’re getting into Trump’s indictments with journalist Michael Tracey for this week’s episode. The big question — and the heart of our debate — is whether we should consider these indictments legitimate. Where (if at all) do Trump’s actions become, rather than just his usual politicking, criminal behavior? Watch below to see where we (and our guest) fall on this issue:

Michael maintains that a reasonable person wouldn’t judge Trump’s behavior as criminal. Of course, the Trump campaigns and presidency have heavily featured a high degree of political theater, so that it’s possible to take the stance — as Michael does — that the charges of (for example) election interference that the former president now faces are taking his politicking too seriously. But we take the other side of the debate: that Trump worked to undermine the 2020 election and took meaningful steps toward doing so. The indictments he faces are legitimate, and in our argument, we lay out the reasons why.

Krystal outlines Trump’s “multi-state scheme to steal an election,” pointing out the coordination that went into this scheme — including, for example, fake electors cajoled into playing a role under false pretenses. The plan Trump and his allies put together was more elaborate and intentional than campaign-trail swagger — it rises to the level of election interference, and the indictment addressing it is, in our eyes, legitimate. To hear the rest of the conversation, watch above, and remember that you can tune in and listen to this episode as a podcast when it’s available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Pandora, and other major streaming platforms tomorrow evening.